Posted under General
I think we should imply hashtag-only commentary to commentary. symbol-only commentary is already implied and symbol-only commentary is still tagged even if the commentary is only symbols and hashtags. The wikis are contradictory right only when the former isn't implied to commentary and the latter is implied.
Danbooru has created two contentious BURs on this. First was ~50/50. Second had a score of +8/-0.
I'd like to see this discussed.
Updated by fish
BUR #417 has been rejected.
create alias hashtag_only_commentary -> hashtag-only_commentary
Noncontentious alias. Same as danbooru.
fish said:
BUR #416 has been rejected.
create implication hashtag-only_commentary -> commentary
See above.
You said we should add an implication, but your BUR is for an alias. Fix it please.
If you think of the word "commentary" by itself, it is to commentate something. Hashtags are like tags, they are just there because there is no better place for them as sites like X don't have a separate field for searchable tags like Pixiv has for instance. The artist does not talk about the image when they layout the hashtags there. Symbols such as in symbol-only commentary do commentate, they are like a single word commentaries in a way (or more given the amount of symbols).
Now if we do think as hashtags "artist is commentating something about the picture", it still goes against the commentary tag in a way as that tag is meant for "understandable by the average English speaker" and if the hashtags are in e.g. Japanese, the user reading that commentary is not getting any new information assuming their Japanese level is at 0. If we make this implementation, then all commentaries that solely read "初音ミク" would be commentary request and "#初音ミク" would be commentary.
Lyren said:
Now if we do think as hashtags "artist is commentating something about the picture", it still goes against the commentary tag in a way as that tag is meant for "understandable by the average English speaker" and if the hashtags are in e.g. Japanese, the user reading that commentary is not getting any new information assuming their Japanese level is at 0. If we make this implementation, then all commentaries that solely read "初音ミク" would be commentary request and "#初音ミク" would be commentary.
I agree with the example, but if the commentary was "😃 #初音ミク", it would be tagged as symbol-only commentary and commentary because as the symbol-only commentary wiki states, hashtags don't count against the tag.
If hashtag-only commentary should be tagged commentary_request, so should symbol-only_commentary that contain hashtags not in english.
If that is the case and BUR #416 fails, hashtag-only_commentary needs to be gardened as stated in the prior sentence.
Either way, the contradictory wikis should be resolved.
fish said:
I agree with the example, but in if the commentary was "😃 #初音ミク", it would be tagged as symbol-only commentary and commentary. If hashtag-only commentary should be tagged commentary_request, so should symbol-only_commentary that contain hashtags not in english.
Well that only be the case if we consider the second paragraph only. The first paragraph is more imporant here, being that hashtags don't really commentate anything and that is why they have been so to say omitted from all the other commentary tags, not just symbol-only ones. "I made a great image. #初音ミク" would still be english_commentary commentary as the hashtag is there solely for tag purposes.
So, with with what you said, if it was an actual part of the commentary, we would indeed need to change the entire commentary system (unimplying symbol-only, start translating hashtags, go through all the already-tagged commentary posts with hashtags, etc.).
Lyren said:
Well that only be the case if we consider the second paragraph only. The first paragraph is more imporant here, being that hashtags don't really commentate anything and that is why they have been so to say omitted from all the other commentary tags, not just symbol-only ones. "I made a great image. #初音ミク" would still be english_commentary commentary as the hashtag is there solely for tag purposes.
So, with with what you said, if it was an actual part of the commentary, we would indeed need to change the entire commentary system (unimplying symbol-only, start translating hashtags, go through all the already-tagged commentary posts with hashtags, etc.).
I see I was missing your point before. I agree with your example where the hashtag is used for tagging purposes only. However, there are also posts where the hashtag is indeed used for commentary, and I'm not sure if we want people to translate all hashtag-only_commentary posts bc of those. I guess what I'm saying is that hashtag-only_commentary should imply either commentary or commentary_request and I'm in favor of the former.
Should I create a BUR for the latter option so we can see what people prefer? Or shall we assume that a negative vote on BUR #416 to be in favor of implying it to commentary_request? I think another explicit BUR would be better rather than an implicit vote.
fish said:
However, there are also posts where the hashtag is indeed used for commentary,
Yes, definitely, and like Danbooru, even in cases where it is hashtag-only_commentary and the commentary is written like #hello #there is also tagged with commentary, but those are case by case scenarios and not implication-level type of commonality.
Lyren said:
Yes, definitely, and like Danbooru, even in cases where it is hashtag-only_commentary and the commentary is written like #hello #there is also tagged with commentary, but those are case by case scenarios and not implication-level type of commonality.
The tag is more complicated than I thought. I think we should unimply symbol-only commentary from commentary if we are to treat the tag like you said bc it can contain hashtags that may be worth translating. If not, then we still have a contradiction with symbol-only commentary and hashtag-only commentary usage.
fish said:
The tag is more complicated than I thought. I think we should unimply symbol-only commentary from commentary if we are to treat the tag like you said bc it can contain hashtags that may be worth translating. If not, then we still have a contradiction with symbol-only commentary and hashtag-only commentary usage.
Hmm I think better approach would be just not tag symbol-only commentary in such cases cuz in a way it's not "symbol-only" anymore at that point.
Lyren said:
Hmm I think better approach would be just not tag symbol-only commentary in such cases cuz in a way it's not "symbol-only" anymore at that point.
That's fine too. Do you want to create the BUR?
Lyren said:
What the BUR would be? I missed that point.
You want to unimply symbol-only commentary from commentary right? You can make and approve that BUR, then reject BUR #416 bc it's no longer needed.
fish said:
You want to unimply symbol-only commentary from commentary right? You can make and approve that BUR, then reject BUR #416 bc it's no longer needed.
I meant that if there's a case where hashtags are used for actual commentary and otherwise be symbol-only commentary, it's better to not tag that tag at all. That way it won't get tagged with comentary automatically either.
I understand that. Then do you want to edit the symbol-only commentary tag to say that? We'll have to garden it as well.
Edit: It already says symbols only. I was confusing it for the danbooru wiki version. I think it still needs to specify how hashtags are handled.
fish said:
I understand that. Then do you want to edit the symbol-only commentary tag to say that? We'll have to garden it as well.
Edit: It already says symbols only. I was confusing it for the danbooru wiki version. I think it still needs to specify how hashtags are handled.
Yes it would make sense to add something about hashtags onto that wiki.
I think hashtag-only commentary is a stupid tag that doesn't need to exist. I said as much when Danbooru made this tag: it's a worthless tag that nobody will realistically ever search for, that only exists to serve some autistic distinction of hashtags not being symbols. What's next, url-only commentary?
Also, re: BUR #417, punctuation marks are not considered for autocomplete so I really don't see a need to make all these aliases (as I said in forum #2747). The reason Danbooru has that alias is because the tag was initially made without the hyphen and was later moved to be 'more correct'. It's already more correct on AIBooru, so adding that alias is pointless.
Penance said:
I think hashtag-only commentary is a stupid tag that doesn't need to exist. I said as much when Danbooru made this tag: it's a worthless tag that nobody will realistically ever search for, that only exists to serve some autistic distinction of hashtags not being symbols. What's next, url-only commentary?
Also, re: BUR #417, punctuation marks are not considered for autocomplete so I really don't see a need to make all these aliases (as I said in forum #2747). The reason Danbooru has that alias is because the tag was initially made without the hyphen and was later moved to be 'more correct'. It's already more correct on AIBooru, so adding that alias is pointless.
I think there is a point in keeping hashtag-only commentary because it can be commentary and be tagged with commentary_request, which isn't the case with symbol-only commentary.
Regarding the punctuation autocorrect, I didn't know. I think the alias can still be useful if someone makes a typo somehow.
fish said:
I think there is a point in keeping hashtag-only commentary because it can be commentary and be tagged with commentary_request, which isn't the case with symbol-only commentary.
Hashtags aren't supposed to be considered when marking a post with commentary or commentary request anyway. I don't really like the idea of translating them to begin with, except for specific circumstances (like if people are writing entire essays in the hashtags as a joke or something). A post with "#明日方舟 #アークナイツ #Arknights" in its commentary doesn't gain much value from having that translated to "#Arknights #Arknights #Arknights" (which is something people have done). Most people understand hashtags to be, well, tags, not meaningful commentary.
Regarding the punctuation autocorrect, I didn't know. I think the alias can still be useful if someone makes a typo somehow.
We don't need aliases that cater to every possible typo someone can make. I think it's pretty unlikely someone would type out a whole tag like hashtag-only commentary when tagging and not just autocomplete it (ps: you can type /hoc as a shortcut). If you manage to type the entire thing without realizing it's wrong, it's on you (and you'll probably (hopefully) notice when the site complains you made a new tag).
Penance said:
Hashtags aren't supposed to be considered when marking a post with commentary or commentary request anyway. I don't really like the idea of translating them to begin with, except for specific circumstances (like if people are writing entire essays in the hashtags as a joke or something). A post with "#明日方舟 #アークナイツ #Arknights" in its commentary doesn't gain much value from having that translated to "#Arknights #Arknights #Arknights" (which is something people have done). Most people understand hashtags to be, well, tags, not meaningful commentary.
We don't need aliases that cater to every possible typo someone can make. I think it's pretty unlikely someone would type out a whole tag like hashtag-only commentary when tagging and not just autocomplete it (ps: you can type /hoc as a shortcut). If you manage to type the entire thing without realizing it's wrong, it's on you (and you'll probably (hopefully) notice when the site complains you made a new tag).
Most hashtag-only commentary posts are tagged with commentary on danbooru and aibooru. This means most people tag hashtag-only commentary together with commentary. I think that is fine.
I'm ambivalent on the alias.
Is there a list of all the / shortcuts?
fish said:
Most hashtag-only commentary posts are tagged with commentary on danbooru and aibooru. This means most people tag hashtag-only commentary together with commentary. I think that is fine.
Before hashtag-only commentary was even a tag, none of the posts that would qualify as hashtag-only commentary were tagged as commentary due to the fact that for years we have omitted hashtags from the other commentary tags. So as how the tags are handled now, those are simply mistags that people started doing whenever this new tag was introduced.
If any BUR would be made on this regard I would upvote a BUR that would just be "mass update hashtag-only commentary -> -commentary".
fish said:
Is there a list of all the / shortcuts?
I've rarely used the feature but pretty sure when you do the /, it will always take the highest post count tags for it. You can test it by yourself by writing / and then some letters and you will see what I mean.
fish said:
Most hashtag-only commentary posts are tagged with commentary on danbooru and aibooru. This means most people tag hashtag-only commentary together with commentary. I think that is fine.
Maybe you misunderstand what I mean. I'm saying hashtags are ignored when you are considering whether to add commentary or commentary request. If a commentary has Japanese text and some Japanese hashtags, you are only expected to translate the text, not the hashtags, before adding the commentary tag. That has been long-standing practice and the new hashtag-only commentary tag was just idiot taggers on Danbooru deciding all of a sudden people care about this. It's like eyebrows visible through hair but even stupider.
Is there a list of all the / shortcuts?
It just looks for tags where the first letter of each word matches a character in the alias. /hoc -> hashtag-only commentary. If you search it'll show all matching tags in autocomplete, if you add the shortcut to tags/searches directly it'll use the matching tag with the greatest postcount.
The bulk update request #416 (forum #2762) has been rejected by @Lyren.
The bulk update request #417 (forum #2763) has been rejected by @Penance.
The bulk update request #426 (forum #2817) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
